Curse

Vrenn · Nov 03, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

I'm fairly new to MM'ing, and I can summon a decent army and keep it up, but is there any way to control them? As in, tell the minions where to go (hotkeys?). I also read somewhere about auto summon mode, which I don't know about either.

I'll go ahead and post my build, I only have Prophecies.

Death: 12+1+3
Reaping: 10+3
Healing Prayers: 8

Animate Bone Fiend
Animate Bone Horror
Aura of the Lich
Blood of the Master
Taste of Death
Deathly Swarm
Heal Area
Resurrect

mrmango · Nov 03, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

That's an alright MM build. I'd just advise you to get rid of the +3 soul reaping rune. Health is good, lol. Get res sig, resurrect sucks. And invest in dark bond instead of taste of death. Dark bond @ 0 blood is good, 3 blood is godly. :P

And no minion controls exist.

SeraCombi · Nov 03, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

discipline is the best way to control bad minnies!

Vrenn · Nov 03, 2007, 01:54 AM // 01:54

So if my minions are stuck trying to attack a group of guys up on a ledge, they're pretty much toast? No way to pull them back? Man, that stinks.

About the +3 reaping rune, I read that lower health is better when using AotL. I might have been misinformed though.

Carinae · Nov 03, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrenn

About the +3 reaping rune, I read that lower health is better when using AotL. I might have been misinformed though.

Dual Superiors is an advanced method to reduce the impact of sacrifices and increase the efficiency of your self heal. It wasn't an error.

Blackhawk · Nov 03, 2007, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Dual Superiors is an advanced method to reduce the impact of sacrifices and increase the efficiency of your self heal. It wasn't an error.

Makes a change to see someone see things the way I do, I normally get slagged off big time for running Dual sups when I MM lol.

Best way to control minions is to practice in a place like Flame Temple Corridor where theres loads of easy foes and you'll soon be able keep them under control regarding aggro (well as best you can, and if any do decide to "stray", hit them with Taste of Death) and generally be able to point them in the right direction.

Usual culprits to make them go a bit "wonky" are bridges and ledges as you will find out as the game has no "Z Axis" recognition and treats everything as being on the same level regardless of whether it's 5 or 500 ft up or down, but that affects everything and not just minions.

Chthon · Nov 03, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

I'd just advise you to get rid of the +3 soul reaping rune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Dual Superiors is an advanced method to reduce the impact of sacrifices and increase the efficiency of your self heal. It wasn't an error.

Carinae, is right on as usual. Two, or even three, sup. runes is a way of reducing sac costs and the amount of energy you have to spend (or your monk has to spend) to counteract them.

As I've said before elsewhere, you want to run your health at the lowest value you are comfortable with such that 25% of it divides (close to) evenly into your self-heal's amount healed. (Example: If your self-heal heals for 100, then go (close to) 400, 200, or 134, whichever is the lowest you are comfortable with.) The purpose of this breakpointing is to avoid overhealing and/or underhealing because your sacs and self-heal are mismatche din size. In the case of regen-based self-heals like Mystic Regen, you don't need to worry about breakpoints, so just go as low as you are comfortable.

Now, on to the topic at hand, minion control. There isn't much, but it's not exactly true that there's none. Study the minion AI, and manipulating it will start to come to you naturally. I'll try to give you an overview here, but you're going to need to sit down and watch the litte buggers yourself.

Let's start with moods. Minions have two moods: Happy and Aggro. When minions are Happy, they follow you. They bask in your radiant glow of master-ness. They form a little circle around you if you stop. There's two things you need to know about Happy: (1) If you're using Heal Area, pause for a moment so that they circle up before casting. Get them all in the spell's range. This used to be called "the dance" or "the minion master dance." Maybe it still is, I just haven't heard it in awhile. (2) There are times you need to keep the minions Happy so that they don't run off and get themselves killed and/or attract monsters. In principle, this is rather easy -- just don't wand or cast any offensive spells, and make sure to cut a path that keeps the minions' aggro circles from picking up any enemies.

Getting the minions to go Aggro is the exact opposite. Wand something, cast an offensive spell on something, or get something into their aggro range.

The next thing is getting the minions to attack what you want. Generally, this is hard. If you sent them Aggro with a wand shot or an offensive spell, they will start out aggroed onto your target of choice. This means you should pick your first target in a battle carefully. There's also a chance they may decide to change target on you. You can usually prevent this through positioning and approach angle.

The minions' choose their targets (or choose to change their targets) in very much the same way monsters do. Each target within range (range = the thing that initially aggroed them, plus the aggro circle of the thing that aggroed them, plus the minion's own aggro circle (if you've ever done something with a stance tank/obsidian tank, you know this in reverse)) gets a numerical score. That score is some sort of weighted composite of whether or not the minion is already "on" that target, how close it is, how low its hp is, how low its armor is, and whether or not you are wanding it. The potential target with the best score wins -- that is it gets attacked. Minions seem to care more about proximity than monsters do. Wanding is also a surprisingly strong factor. (Actually there's a bit more to say about target selection, but it's nitpciky, so I'll leave it out.) So, if you want to avoid the minions second-guessing your choice of target, make sure to wand, and try to come at your target from a direction that keeps any substantially weaker monsters from ever being substantially closer to the minions as they make their way to the target.

If your minions turned from Happy to Aggro by a monster coming into their aggro circle, the minions will pause for a moment before attacking. This pause can be good -- if, for example, you don't want an aggro and the monster gets clear of the circle quickly enough that the minions don't bolt -- or it can be bad -- if, for example, you want your minions up front tanking right NOW and they're being slow about it. Lesson here: Use a wand shot or spell to set them to Aggro if you really want them to move out immediately. The minion's initial target will be whatever got in the circle first, though it's likely to change targets before it engages because of the great distance. One other point of interest: Your minions behave like a party when they are close together, so if one aggros, several usually will go with it, even if their aggro bubbles were clear.

Getting a minion from Aggro back to Happy is hard to do. Basically, you must kill its target. That will turn it back to Happy for a moment. If there's no more monsters around, it will stay Happy. If there are monsters around, it will quickly go back to Aggro because there's a monster in its bubble. During that moment, you can wand something to try to set its target. If you don't it ill pick its own. During this moment of Happy, the minion may run back towards you a little, since it's trying to follow. This was a BIG AI problem immediately after NF was released, since melee minions spent more time running than fighting. Previous patches shortened the post-target-killed period of Happy to reduce this problem. Recently I've noticed that you can sometimes get a minion to break off by far enough running away. This never used to happen, ever. It's a relatively new (silent) change, and I haven't studied it much.

Hope that helped you learn to think like a minion.

Carinae · Nov 03, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

You can direct minions to targets, even during combat. It's sloppy, but it works. When a minion kills its target, there is a split second where it searches for a new target. If you wand a new target during that period, it sets the target for the minion. So, keep wanding your priority targets and you will gradually attract your brood to it.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Getting a minion from Aggro back to Happy is hard to do. Basically, you must kill its target. That will turn it back to Happy for a moment. If there's no more monsters around, it will stay Happy. If there are monsters around, it will quickly go back to Aggro because there's a monster in its bubble. During that moment, you can wand something to try to set its target. If you don't it ill pick its own. During this moment of Happy, the minion may run back towards you a little, since it's trying to follow. This was a BIG AI problem immediately after NF was released, since melee minions spent more time running than fighting. Previous patches shortened the post-target-killed period of Happy to reduce this problem. Recently I've noticed that you can sometimes get a minion to break off by far enough running away. This never used to happen, ever. It's a relatively new (silent) change, and I haven't studied it much.

or what Chthon said. (sorry, I didnt read it fully)

Vrenn · Nov 03, 2007, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Thanks for all of the in-depth info!! Chthon, your explanation helped a lot. I need to observe more, and it's a lot to observe.

Any criticisms on the build? I usually summon two horrors to tank then load up on the fiends, which has been working well.

hotman · Nov 03, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

i dont usually pay attention to minion aggro as fiends and vamp horrors+order of undead=kill

blue.rellik · Nov 03, 2007, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

That's an alright MM build. I'd just advise you to get rid of the +3 soul reaping rune. Health is good, lol. Get res sig, resurrect sucks. And invest in dark bond instead of taste of death. Dark bond @ 0 blood is good, 3 blood is godly. :P

And no minion controls exist.

You did read the first post didn't you?

To the OP, add in [skill]Dark Bond[/skill] and even possible [skill]Blood Renewal[/skill]. With AotL, Dark Bond and 330 hp (2 superiors), you'll be taking very little damage if you ever get hit which is quickly recovered.

Moloch Vein · Nov 03, 2007, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Which chapters do you own, Vrenn?

Blackhawk · Nov 03, 2007, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Which chapters do you own, Vrenn?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrenn

I only have Prophecies.

Bolded for clarity

Moloch Vein · Nov 03, 2007, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Your build is pretty decent for a Prophecies-only MM.

I'd add Dark Bond in place of Taste of Death, and switch Deathly Swarm for Blood Renewal. It's debatable if you really need Heal Area - if you can manage without it, just spec 8 Blood and you can spam BoTM to high heaven, as well as get better duration for Dark Bond.

It's all a matter of taste at that point, really.

Chthon · Nov 03, 2007, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

You can direct minions to targets, even during combat. It's sloppy, but it works. When a minion kills its target, there is a split second where it searches for a new target. If you wand a new target during that period, it sets the target for the minion.

You can also sometimes get them to change targets even though their current target is alive. If the target you want a minion to attack is comparatively closer, lower AL, and/or lower health, your wanding maybe be enough to make that target "tasty" enough to overcome their current target's "tastiness" bonus due to being the current target. You've got your best chance of doing this when the minion is still closing in on its current target. (Easy place to see this in action: The stairs in the Tunnels outside of Maatu Keep. If you can get minions on the stairs and monsters above and below, you can make the minions run up and down the stairs by alternating your wand shots high and low. Also kinda amusing to watch.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vrenn

Any criticisms on the build? I usually summon two horrors to tank then load up on the fiends, which has been working well.
...
Death: 12+1+3
Reaping: 10+3
Healing Prayers: 8

Animate Bone Fiend
Animate Bone Horror
Aura of the Lich
Blood of the Master
Taste of Death
Deathly Swarm
Heal Area
Resurrect

Not really. That's about as good as you can manage for Prophecies only. IMO, Deathly Swarm is pretty terrible. If you want direct damage in the Prophecies-only death line, consider Rotting Flesh or Well of Suffering. Or, you might try out Moloch's advice (below) to see if that build feels better for you. I'd agree that, as between that build and your current build, it's largely a matter of taste. If you do drop heal area and go 8 blood, and you tend to play with unreliable healers (PUGs, Mhenlo), you might bring Well of Blood as utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Your build is pretty decent for a Prophecies-only MM.

I'd add Dark Bond in place of Taste of Death, and switch Deathly Swarm for Blood Renewal. It's debatable if you really need Heal Area - if you can manage without it, just spec 8 Blood and you can spam BoTM to high heaven, as well as get better duration for Dark Bond.

It's all a matter of taste at that point, really.

Moloch Vein · Nov 03, 2007, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Btw, bring Rebirth.

Zev · Nov 03, 2007, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Rebirth is only needed once in very long while. The situation would be that you are losing the battle, you run away and a party member(s) dies near the mob. You want to rez the party member(s) before going on the attack again.

Using Rebirth in battle should obviously be something you should NEVER do. You lose all your energy when you cast this, meaning you are now useless for a good time. Your party member is rezed with no energy, again useless. And to top it off their skills are disabled for a period of time, extra useless.Using this skill in a battle is one of the worst things you can do in the game. It makes both the user and the target useless.

Now if you make sure to never get into a situation where you need to run away from mobs, you will never need this skill. Just bring a good combat rez, like Res Sig, or Rez Chant.If you really must have a tele rez bring Sunspear Rebirth sig.

Rebirth used to be super popular way back in the day, back when people didn't/couldn't play the game as well (remember when Thunderhead Keep was the hardest mission in the game, lol). There is very little reason to ever, EVER bring rebirth. Except if the situation explicitly calls for it (i.e. certain team runs).

and if you give your hero monk Rebirth, please deactivate it. You tell the hero when to use it, to be sure there are no combat rezs.

Arg sorry for the rant. I just have a thing for Rebirth.

Moloch Vein · Nov 03, 2007, 08:44 PM // 20:44

The henchmen monks will have "combat rez" which they will use at any inappropriate time. Also he has no heroes.

If he wants to bring a resurrection skill I think it's best that he actually bring the "emergency" variant.

Vrenn · Nov 03, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Rellik and Moloch, I've been testing your suggestions (swapping for Bond and Renewal) and the build has been running much better. I've also been using Infuse Conditions in place of Heal Area. Once I get EotN, I think I will swap Infuse Conditions for Masochism.

As for using Rebirth, I'm hesitant to use it for the reasons Zev gave. I've only had to rez during battle occasionally, perhaps I should go with Rebirth and only use it in the situation where most of the group is dead.

Moloch Vein · Nov 04, 2007, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Yay, another convert to pip-based health regeneration!